Preservation of Africa's cultural heritage

Hi People

In 1970 a number of nations entered into an agreement that Africa's cultural heritage should be preserved by forbidding the export of African antiquities and returning those outside the continent to Africa (I know that this is an oversimplification, but I think it reflects the gist of things).

I would like to raise some questions for reader comment:
1. Is Africa's cultural heritage really Africa's, not mankind's?
2. Is there a strong argument that it is best preserved by having all of the artifacts within the current political boundaries that include their places of origin?
3. Is there a logical reason why the same principle would not demand that Europe's cultural heritage be preserved by returning European artifacts to the current political boundaries that include their places of origin?

Just some food for thought.

Regards,

Steve Price

Frank Willet on restitution...

Dear Board,
A friend recently related to me a real life saga about repatriated African art and its subsequent return to the market. Since this matter is relevant to this Ethics thread I thought I'd try to find out a bit more about the situation in question. Many of you will no doubt be familiar with this particular case already, none the less I will post an article since it illustrates the convoluted nature of the issue and what may or may not be viable steps to take when addressing the matter. Critics of Mr. Willett’s position usually complain that his stance on the futility of restitution does not address the underlying issue of “demand”. I would add that I have yet to see any of the critics of Mr. Willett come up with an alternative approach that realistically addresses the issue of demand either.

I found the following article by Martin Bailey that sums up this “case in point” on The Art Newspaper web site :

Don’t return artefacts to Nigeria
Leading expert on Nigerian antiquities warns that government and museum officials in the country are involved with the illicit trade of artefacts to the West


By Martin Bailey

LONDON. The most distinguished specialist on Nigerian antiquities is now urging that looted and stolen artefacts should no longer be returned to Nigeria, because of endemic corruption in the country.

Frank Willett, former director of the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow, says he has adopted this position with great reluctance. Writing in the latest issue of the Journal of Museum Ethnography, he explains: “It is indeed depressing that having spent the last forty years trying to demonstrate that the peoples of Nigeria have a history and an artistic heritage of which they can be proud, to find that those who now hold the roles we once did are not only not taking care of their heritage, but are exploiting this irreplaceable material by allowing its illicit export to dealers and collectors in the West.”

Professor Willett points to thefts in recent years from museums at Abadan, Abeokuta, Esie, Jos and Owo. Among the most recent cases he has uncovered is a famous ancient bronze stool, the greatest treasure of the Ife University Museum of Art, which was stripped of its collection in a series of thefts in 1993-94. Professor Willett reveals that it has now turned up in America, “accompanied with what appears to be a valid official Clearance Permit issued on 20 June, 1994 and signed by an officer of the National Commission for Museums and Monuments as ‘examined and found to be non-antiquity’.” He concludes: “One wonders whether the authorisation of this export is due to incompetence or to corruption.”

The International Council of Museums (ICOM) has recently been pressing museums, collectors and dealers not to acquire looted items on its “Red List” (including Nok terracottas, Ife terracottas and bronzes, Esie stone statues and Sao terracottas and bronzes), and for them to be returned to their country of origin. Pressure was also exerted by ICOM on the Louvre not to display two ancient Nok terracottas bought by the Musée du quai Branly from a Belgian (see article).

But Professor Willett believes that returning “Red List” artefacts to Nigeria would now be misguided: “I have been keeping an eye on the art market and attempting to arrange for the return of pieces stolen from Nigerian museums ever since I left the paid service of the Nigerian Government in 1963, yet here I am recommending that objects should not be returned.”

This view is backed by John Picton of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies, who in the same issue of the Journal of Museum Ethnography describes Professor Willett’s forceful assessment as “entirely accurate”. Picton adds that “thefts and illegal excavations constitute at least as serious a tragedy as the looting of the art of Benin City by British forces in 1897.”

Professor Willett’s article concludes with what he describes as one hopeful straw in the wind: “It has just been reported that charges of embezzlement have been brought by the new [Nigerian] regime against one member of staff of the National Commission for Museums and Monuments.”

Hello Steve P. ,

It seems that I missed a quite interesting thread!!

So, indeed I would like to say to you something about this topic!!

First ,I would like to answer to your question about the possible re-patriation of important African artifacts to their places of origin.

Really, it did came to my mind the very famous and big "case" of the eventual re-patriation of the Marble Carvings, -Elgin Marbles as them are referred to!! - of the Parthenon in Athens, -in theory from Britain to what it is its natural beside the fact right place of origin, Greece!! Certainly ,you can be sure the Britons will never ,and I say again NEVER, give back anything at all!! Be sure!!!!!

Please let me say I have nothing at all regarding Britain or its people, in particular!! At the contrary!!

Though, this can't change the matter of facts. Those marble are too important to exist also the faintest or remotest possibility
they could ever came back anywhere. Instead, they will lay where they are since the 19th century, and for EVER!!

Basically, I didn't see any difference if we would consider the
case of the re-patriation of something of equal beauty and importance that might be an African artifact!!

There is an important, and that too quite famous episode about. It regards again, Britain and the Kingdom of Benin. You certainly already know. Anyway, simply and shortly this is the story. In a very "infamous", and unhappy event, the British led a terrible, and horrible, too "Punitive Expedition" - the name tells everything!! - against the king of Benin, in the present Nigeria if I am right!! So, to end what was also a fabulous opportunity for the British really to take to "steal" a wonderful, special treasure!! The super famous "Benin Bronzes". They, too are in Britain, now!!

What ,I wanted to tell you now, then it is to answer to the broader question: Whatever are the artifacts in question, will they ever be returned to what you call it is their places of origin??!! And if yes, or no, why it is so??!!!

This is my thought, naturally!!

No, not at all!! Neither sooner nor later in the future!! Especially, if you refer to so important and beautiful artifacts. And this why??!!! This, because there are too many, many others more important aspects you have to consider!! Take, for instance the Elgin Marbles. For England, after all they represent the symbol, the emblem of the best of them, of their glorious past, and honestly too big a treasure to be given back to whoever might be!! Fundamentally the same rule apply to all this kind of "stuff"!!!!!

So, let me say that I think there are only two basic philosophies in
this matter of things. And today, definately prevails a philosophy you can called "liberal", if not straight "mercantile"!! Whoever takes it, "grabs" the treasure!! He is the right, legal and "legitimate", too, owner!!

In past decades, of the past century, especially in the 60-70s
there was another philosophy instead. You can called it of ethic ,
moral, though sometimes hypocritical idea and practice that "every object" had to belong and be in the place where it originated from.

Today, basically I see this philosophy is in decline. What is sure instead, it is that the other philosophy is prevailing. I know many different cases about stolen or hidden treasures!! This thing happens really around the hour!! Not just once a year!! This is certainly a bad and shameful process, though that is the truth!!!!!

For me ,honestly I want to say I am hypothetically for the philosophy of "Justice" - the "ethic" one!! Though, what I think instead is that in the current reality of the present world, and
certainly in the future world it is the "grab" philosophy that rules!!
That is for sure!!!!!

What is your thought ,Steve??!!!

Best Regards

Yours Lorenzo

There is a book titled PLUNDERING AFRICA'S PAST edited by Peter Schmidt and Roderick McIntosh which details the history of the movement of African Art objects out of Africa since World War two. The book further details how the art-market continues to fuel illicit looting at previously undisturbed sites in Mali, Nigeria and elsewhere--which is interfering with archaelogical work.
I once mentioned this book to a professor and curator for a major ethnographic collection in New York at the Brooklyn Museum of Art. He replied that the entire collection in the National Museum that he built in Liberia was looted for sale or destroyed.

Another interesting book titled AFRICAN ART IN TRANSIT by Christopher Steiner sheds some light on the inner-working of art dealers (I shoudl say sellers) in Abidjan, Ivory Coast. They are predominately muslim and the objects they sell are not their own cultural artifacts. Most of course are fake in any case. This is similar to the case in New York where again the great bulk of traders are muslim. If you go to Chelsea Storage there a few hundred African dealers there who operate from their storage units as a base to travels the country, some traveling thousands of miles.

The point I would like to make is there is a huge difference between theory and reality. And between western value and perception (in SOME cases) of these objects. In theory, cultural objects should be returned, such was the case of the famous AFO-AKOM in Cameroon. But in reality, many objects the west might deem important if returned would simply be sold out of the back-door of the museum-or mysteriously "disappear". Also returning an object to a museum, an object which was created not simply for arts-sake but to be used in ritual-- is not the same as returning it to the actual culture which made the object. The theme that I have read so often now is that the objects themselves were truly NOT important (even when valued aesthetically) when compared to their true importance which was the hidden spiritual power that they contained and manipulated. To truly return many of these objects, we might need a time machine.

Hi All

There's another wrinkle to all this that 's seldom mentioned. It can be argued that repatriation of cultural objects is a provincial view; for example, that African cultural objects are as much a part of my (African-American, adopted) son's heritage as they are of anybody in Mali. Indeed, if we take the position that all of us are brothers and sisters, the argument transcends geographic or ethnic boundaries.

If we push the repatriation position to its limit, nothing made in the Netherlands would be outside the Netherlands, Da Vinci's Mona Lisa would move from Paris to Italy, and the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts' excellent collection of Asian arts would all go back to Asia. Would the world be a better place if these things happened? I don't think so. On the other hand, stolen property is still stolen property, and belongs to its rightful owner.

Like most things that get debated, the answers aren't simple.

Regards

Steve Price

Hello All ,

Really, I am so happy that my enquiry got a few replys. That is great!!

I wanted ,just to add something more about. Please, now take ,as example what told Mr. Willet in the article posted above. The Briton himself, Mr. Willet told that indeed the treasures in question are all too beautiful and important to be given back at all!! After all they are of "legitimate" property of Great Britain!! And he adds to the argumentation that in the present political and cultural situation of Nigeria this cameback is highly not advisable!! Simple told, you can't categorically trust the Nigerians for!!

The truth ,in my modest opinion ,it is that Mr. Willet is quite hypocritical, if not a little lying, no doubts!!

The facts are diferent. As an old Briton he has simply the old concept and ideas, of the no re-patriation, anyway!! Now he adds just the "excuse" of the present chaos in Africa!! Stronger argumentation to support his stance, that is for sure!!

Instead this is the truth. OK, naturally "pratically", speaking Mr. Willet NOW is absolutely right!! It will be stupid, simply irresponsible to do a similiar thing!! Though ,this don't change that I personally disagree with this cultural and "pratical" vision of facts!!

You can say that the poor Greeks of today and certainly of yesterday would not have the ability to properly conserve their "own" marbles ,and to our point that just, for instance some peoples and countries of black aAfrica are "categorically" unable to store and properely preserve their "Cultural Treasures"!! This seems to me a too much simplified and symplicistic, too vision of things!!

Let me say you this!! Did you really think that all the major western countries, instead are perfect!!!!! They were all saints,
angels??!!! Was you so sure??!!! I am not, at all!!

Let me say a very unkind thing, now. You said : and the African goverments permit the illicit trade of their artifacts to the western nations and theirs potential costumers!!

Then, who is the most un-ethic ,not moral people??!!!

If, the westerns were all so "perfect" - to say "ethic" should be no neccesity and reason for the African governements to allow this black market to exist!! It isn't so??!!!

Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

I think you misunderstood Willett's position. He has long favored repatriation of looted cultural artifacts, including (indeed, especially) those taken by the British. He modified this to be that Nigerian artifacts should not be returned to Nigeria until the current corruption there is under control.

The question of which nation is more or less ethical seems to me to be off the mark. Nations aren't ethical or unethical, individual people are. Framing the issue in terms of national ethics is only a short step from framing it in terms of ethnic group ethics. Are we to judge all Muslims by the acts of the terrorist minority that claims to act on their behalf? I don't think so.

Regards,

Steve Price

Dear Steve ,

Just regarding the position of Mr. Willett, honestly I didn't know exactly all the story, and this after all have no importance!! I just like to add it to argument more, so now go over it!!

Though I would like to better explain to you what I told, and so re-state stronger my point of view!!

No, not not all!! Steve, basically all this story of big love for the ethnical and or classical Objects and now the eventual possible re-patriation, what was and is??!!!

This is a long, big and fascinating, too, process and history of the western civilizations!! It is from the times of the ancient Romans, they liked to take the "exotic" Egypian artifacts, that this process exists!!!!! To the modern times where, especially the European nations in the first and second halves of the 19th century, their glorious century!! Maybe Britain, France and Germany, they eagerly went in search for the fabulous treasure all over the world!! And then they built all the wonderful, big and great collections that now are the British Museum, the Louvre and the Berlin Museum, also!!

Indeed, the last part of the 19th and then as a very boom in the first half of the past century was the discovery of the "Primitive" and or of the "Tribal"!! And "voila"!!, a new big fantastic field was found, and a new "scramble", actually the last!! to catch the new wonderful treasure started!!!!!

Today, though in a so fainter, and spent way, the situation is basically the same!!

Though you could maybe add just two important and different things, leading the contemporary circumstances and history.

First, you have nothing more to discover, no more "scrambles" are possible, alas!! It had to be very beautilful, be sure!! Very exciting and appealing!!

Second, being this the situation there is in the workings a big process, that you can call of re , and re- and again re-definition, of endless re-descovery, re-adjustments of what is already known!! So, after all a modest thing, a poor one, at least in my opinion.

You understand very well that in these circumstances you can have not only many different theories, but told all the argumentations you could liked!! Reality, remains the same!!

All this wonderful process: the cultural, historical process of enrichment has come to a definitive end!! The western world has conquered all and everybody. In a certain sense all that is happening now is a "play game" the western world is playing, just with itself, only for itself!! The other peoples are but basically victims!! They are all co-actors, the protagonist, the starter of all this big story, who all this liked and wanted to be was and remains the western world!! Whoever, else??!!!

I hoped, I was able to make me more undestandable, otherwise I will like to explain further any still obscure aspect to you!!


Regards

Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say - perhaps it's a language problem. Your posts make it look as if you believe
1. "The west" (meaning, I guess, Europe and North America) invented and are the only cultures in which theft and looting has been practiced on a large scale.
2. "The west" has consistently directed its unethical behavior toward African and other less technologically developed cultures, with this reaching a climax during the European colonial period (say, 1800 to 1950).
3. The worst offenders (the only ones you mention specifically) are France, Germany and Great Britain.
4. The exciting discoveries about the cultures of what we might loosely refer to as the tribal world have all been made - none are still left to find.

I think none of those positions are defensible, so before saying anything more about them, I'll ask you if they are accurate statements of your beliefs and, if not, whether you'd be good enough to clarify things.

Thanks,

Steve Price

Dear Steve ,



Many ,many Thanks for your questions.


First of all ,let me say you ,that it seems to me that you have perfectly understood and re-stated all my positions , my "believes"!!

Though ,I wanted to add ,a couple of things ,because I see that you had not intended that matters in the way I told those ,-perhaps!!

Actually ,I believe what I said to you.
Though ,please you have to keep in your mind that I have tryed to tell you a very difficult ,complex and long Matter!!
Indeed ,I tryed to summarize the question the shortest and easiest way ,possible. So ,I had to tell that in a bit "rough" way and short ,-maybe!!


Second ,again what I said ,it is what I believed.
Though ,please don't take the facts in a too much judgemental way!! I din't want to make "judgments" ,at all!!


Just ,you say for instance that the major "offenders" was the three european Nations mentioned above ...., yes!! ,certainly them are ,though naturally you have to add the other ones too ,if you wanted to be more exact!!!!!

And also ,you say ....,and the Westerns was not the only looters in the History ....,naturally that is absolutely true!! Though ,again in this case I wanted just to be simple!!



Anyway ,the very point I tryed to say ,it was to answer your question about the Protection or not of the cultural Heritages ,African in this case!!


So ,I gave you my answer ,however.

If in theory ,I am certainly for the "ethical" philosophy ,we all know too much well that in the present world ,it is defenetely the other philosophy ,the "grab" philososopy ,that prevails!!!!!

This ,simply this point I tryed to tell you ,for sure!!





Best regards




Yours Lorenzo

Hello Steve ,and All

So ,indeed I wanted just to add and so end this Discussion ,
providing you with this ,truely special ,wonderful Article!!

Please ,go and read to this link : www.africans-art.com/index.php3?action=page&id_art=263 .

That is simply an extraordinary ,exellent Article about the situation of the African trade ,nowaday. The report is of a few years ago ,then I think the situation is basically the same ,now. That is ,truely a complete ,thourough article!! You will find references about the Nok lootings ,Mr. Willet ,the horrible situation of Nigeria, The Congo ....,amongst the others in a complete ,ultimative Report!!

Really ,It is useless that I add more. Read and see by yourself!!

Then ,I thought that it will be quite impossible for you or anybody to say any more word ,alas!!!!!

Best



Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

The article is excellent, but linking to it through Tribal Art Forum presents me with another ethical dilemma.

The link leads to a site that has no significant content except articles reproduced exactly, including images, from other sites on the web. The sources are always acknowledged (the source of the one to which you linked was the on-line version of Time Europe, June 18, 2001 Vol. 157 No. 24), but the owner of the "Africans-Art" site rarely, probably never, has permission to use the copyrighted material. He simply uses the intellectual property of others to generate traffic to his site, and sells advertising space.

We don't include "Africans-Art" on our Links page because of our ethical objections to pirating the work of others. The Time Europe article is no longer accessible on the Time Europe website. If it was, I would have simply edited your message to make it link directly to the source.

Regards

Steve Price

Hello Steve ,

Truely ,I am sorry about what you just told me. Honestly ,I didn't mind ,at all!! I thought ,that indeed because it was a so good article and the source was great ,too then it mighty be right to let you know. I beg you Pardon!!

And ,just about "ethical" matters ....,you are a too much a Gentleman ,-perhaps!!

Though ,now you have read about the complete "Razzia" ,
robbery and looting of the special ,wonderful Nok Terracottas.
Please ,notice in which way ,and How and MOST of all Why those things happened ,and in that exact way!! These ,was the facts I tryed to explain to you ,above. That African people did those things ,because and only ,absolutely for no other reason that the western "hungry" and "Greed" ,for that art and Money!! In this sence ,the need for money ,and greed you can say that it is shared by the Africans on the field ,too!! Honestely ,the case of the Nok terracottas is something of incredible ,so terrible circustances!!

And you have to add to all this ,that in this case you have to do with something more important maybe : this is Archeology. All these are marvelous archeological artifacts dated around or before Christ times!!!!!

And you ,saw perfecly well What happened in this case.
Really ,a rush to ,a "grab" to rob in the very sence of the words!!!!!

Certainly ,this case is truly one if not the worse that I have ever know ,surely in recent times!!

So ,now that you know ,what might be your personal comments???!!!

Let me know.

Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

You wrote, African people did those things ,because and only ,absolutely for no other reason that the western "hungry" and "Greed" ,for that art and Money

I think it is unreasonable to blame westerners for the criminal actions of the Africans involved in these things. The thieves are responsible for what they did. The fact that Europeans were willing to buy the stolen goods from them makes those Europeans criminals, too, of course. You argue that if the buyers weren't there, the thefts would not have occurred. But you could just as easily turn that around: if the thefts hadn't occurred, the buyers couldn't have bought the stolen goods.

The matter is complicated. Africa is not wealthy, and the African thieves stole and only sold their cultural objects for the money. That sounds pretty nice, but it underemphasizes some important facts:
1. They did steal. That's illegal and unethical, no matter what the reason.
2. Not all the thieves were poor, although many were.
3. Many of them had abandoned the traditional indigenous religion, so they saw the objects (which you and I think are their important cultural heritage) as worthless relics.

There's plenty of wrongdoing in this matter, and I don't think it makes sense to blame one person or group for everything. I also think Willett is completely correct: until there is a government in Nigeria that is committed to protecting that country's material culture, it makes little sense to put objects that are valuable to the whole world into their possession.

Regards

Steve Price

Regards

Steve Price

Steve ,

Basically ,I agree with you on every aspect!!

Though ,I wanted to underline two of your statements ,with a bit of polemics ,-perhaps!!

You said ....,and the africans are the thieves at first ,not only the westeners in the first stance. No ,Steve the africans did what they did ,the lootings ,BECAUSE knowing so well what a lucrious activity that might be!! Knowing ,perfectly well what go through the western people minds. If ,those treasure weren't the Treasure them are ,and those weren't so valued ,as MONEY by the westeners NO AFRICANS ,at all!! would EVER had spent a minute of his or her time to dig out those wonderful artifacts.
You have to be of this ,categorically sure!!!!!

Second ,you said .....,those Treasures are a world heritage. No ,they are thought to be so fundamentally by the Western Societies. Hence the assumption ,again by us the westerners that this Judgement is shared by the entire Humanity!! Steve ,be sure too in this case ,this Idea conldn't be more wrong!!
This is ,just what the modern Western world ,and "conscence" think to be!!!!!

Best



Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

Every thief steals because it's lucrative. It's only lucrative because somebody else will buy what they steal (unless they steal money to begin with). The thief is still guilty of being a thief. No amount of dancing around this fact will change it. Every museum guard in the world has a fortune within reach of his arms while he's at work. Lots of buyers out there. If he steals, it's his sin. Can't blame it on the buyers.

I assume that the cultural heritage of Nigeria (for instance) is part of the cultural heritage of all humanity. I think this because I believe that Nigerians are humans. This isn't a complicated concept.

I was appalled at the destruction of the great Buddha statues in Afghanistan by the former Afghanistan government a few years ago. In my opinion, those objects weren't their property, they belonged to the world. Too bad the Afghani government didn't offer them to some European museum. They'd still exist.

Regards

Steve Price

Hi Steve ,

Franky ,I disagree with this ,you said. That ,"also nigerians are human and so .....". Naturally ,they are for sure ,nevertheless the big part of them certainly couldn't have ,and in the facts don't have the kind of high Standards ,you told about!!

They are not so honest ,they don't have at all the high moral and ethical standards you required ,and desired!! It would be a wonderful thing if it was so ,but this is not ,at all!!

Steve ,you ask for a so high moral standard to often ,so poor ,
desperate ,and illiterate people!! You are asking for too much ,-perhaps!! Not ,to say that these "behavioural" Standards you pretend ,so often are NOT met at all ,first in our own western societies ,as you know well!!!!!

Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Let me paraphrase some of what I think you've said in the past few posts:

1. Because they're poor and illiterate, Africans don't have ethical standards that make stealing wrong to them.
2. When theft by Africans occurs, the cause is the greed of Europeans and Americans.
3. In consideration of 1 and 2, when Africans steal and sell cultural objects, the only guilty parties are the Europeans and Americans who buy those objects.

Is this an accurate restatement of what you mean?

Regards

Steve Price

Steve ,

This is ,exactly my meaning.

Indeed ,you told ,consider the case of a western museum Watch : He or she may have the temptation to profit by this. Just ,organize a big robbery of the most important treasures store in that specific museum!! Yes, certainly I think and I hoped that eventhough he or she ,might have had the idea to do a similiar thing ,at the very end he or she have not carried it on!! Basically ,this is what actually had happened!!

Now ,please think to be in Africa. And ,to live and to think as an African. Circumstances are so different. And these change perspective on the meaning and on the Value of Things. So, also ,a Museum director ,not just the simply "watch" is lured and so tempted to do ,what indeed they did so frequently ,to rob and loot!! The ethical standards ,you required are ,maybe really impossible in those societies. This not because Africans are all born Thieves!! No ,though they live in desperate situations ,as you certainly know well!! It is a mix of mindsets and actual living conditions ,-perhaps. After all, think the pay for a museum director in America ,or Europe or that of a simple watch is certainly quite good. Compare ,the corresponding Pays for the museum directors and watches in Africa ,them are just a 100th ,a 1000th of those!! Add to all this ,that for many MODERN Africans ,indeed the "not tribal" Africans all those Pieces are considered just only useless and it seems absolutely valueless "stuff"!! But ,they know perfectly well How works the European Art Market ,and so they exploit it in all its possible
ways.

Hence ,my simple conclusion.

Yes ,the responsibility and "guilt" of this distorted and illigal situation ,though shared by both westerns and Africans ,lays
at the most on western people!! We are the rich ,literate and so "great" westerners, that want to be of example for them ,and instead we behave in a so shameful and unforgivable way!!

Steve, between the two "culprits" ,the westerners are the worst ,anyway. They have no reason ,no excuse to behave in this way. Africans ,after all might have many reasons ,and lots of big problems!!

Though ,naturally I won't forgive them for all the crimes they commited ,certainly you can find easy "human" justifications for what they do. For the westerners which excuse ,or justification you can give me for their behaviour??!!! There is no one.
At the contrary ,just because we live in so much fortunate situations ,the westerners had to be of good example to the other peoples ,isn't so??!!!

This ,what I tryed to explain and made clear. Hoped now you could have understood ,better!! So ,I think now you might agree with me??!!!

Best

Yours Lorenzo

Hi Lorenzo

I think I do understand you, but I disagree almost completely. I don't think further debate will persuade either of us to adopt the other one's position, so I propose that we simply agree to disagree about this.

Regards

Steve Price